Difference between revisions of "Template:Did you know nominations/Saint Tetha"

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*'''ALT3''' ... that '''[[Saint Teath]]''' rhymes with ''death''? -- [[User:EEng|EEng]] ([[User talk:EEng|talk]]) 20:27, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
 
*'''ALT3''' ... that '''[[Saint Teath]]''' rhymes with ''death''? -- [[User:EEng|EEng]] ([[User talk:EEng|talk]]) 20:27, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
*:ALT3's punchier, so long as it doesn't mean we need to include an extraneous pronunciation for ''death'' in the article.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User talk:LlywelynII|<span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Llywelyn<font color="Gold">II</font></span>]] 06:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
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*:ALT3's punchier, so long as it doesn't mean we need to include an extraneous pronunciation for ''death'' in the article.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User talk:LlywelynII|<span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Llywelyn<span style="color:Gold;">II</span></span>]] 06:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
:* [[File:Symbol question.svg|16px]] The article checks out fine: it is new, plenty long enough and sourced well throughout. There is no evidence of close paraphrasing or copyvio. The hooks do present a slight issue. None of them are actually stated in the article at all. The pronunciation guide is given, and referenced, but beyond that I think we're skating on very thin ice. I would either expand to article to explicitly state the pronunciation, or go down a different line. In ALT2 for example, what makes this pronunciation odd? If it rhymes with "breath" and "death", which are spelt similarly, then surely the pronunciation makes sense? English is full of these oddities after all. '''[[User:Harrias|<font color="#00cc33">Harrias</font>]]''' <sup>[[User_talk:Harrias|<font color="#009900">talk</font>]]</sup> 15:35, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
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:* [[File:Symbol question.svg|16px]] The article checks out fine: it is new, plenty long enough and sourced well throughout. There is no evidence of close paraphrasing or copyvio. The hooks do present a slight issue. None of them are actually stated in the article at all. The pronunciation guide is given, and referenced, but beyond that I think we're skating on very thin ice. I would either expand to article to explicitly state the pronunciation, or go down a different line. In ALT2 for example, what makes this pronunciation odd? If it rhymes with "breath" and "death", which are spelt similarly, then surely the pronunciation makes sense? English is full of these oddities after all. '''[[User:Harrias|<span style="color:#00cc33;">Harrias</span>]]''' <sup>[[User_talk:Harrias|<span style="color:#009900;">talk</span>]]</sup> 15:35, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
:*: {{sc|a)}}&nbsp;The pronunciation ''is'' given and referenced and surely [[User:Harrias|you]] don't think it's actually helpful for articles to just start listing rhymes for their entries. If {{sc|[[wp:notdic]]}}, then surely it's not a thesaurus or rhyming dictionary either. {{sc|b)}}&nbsp;This pronunciation is given because it ''is'' odd and misleading. Just like "done" is very common but people don't expect to pronounce "clone" similarly, the natural pronunciation of some unknown word spelled with -ea- is going to be /i/: "[[County Meath|Meath]]" doesn't ''look'' like it's pronounced "meth" any more than people read "plead" as "pled". [[Lead]] (the metal) is the {{sc|primarytopic}} for {{nowrap|{{sc|l-e-a-d}}}} but starts off with a pronunciation guide; [[leadership]] doesn't. So, no, it's certainly understandable to etymologists but doesn't "make sense" to people seeing it for the first time. {{sc|c)}}&nbsp;It's much more helpful to illustrate that with a rhyme, however, than giving people flat IPA. The rule about sourcing hooks is there to make sure the information is accurate and dealt with. With regard to the subject of the article it ''is'' sourced and, with regard to the pronunciation of "death", [[WP:BLUE|it can be taken as common knowledge]] by anyone with enough English to understand the hook.<br>Now, that said, I ''can'' add scrollover text about the rhyme... I just don't think anyone really wants ''or'' needs that, if you really think about it.<br>If you have more general qualms about pronunciation-based hooks, my feeling is that this is the most unexpected, interesting, ''and'' helpful information in the article but you're welcome to suggest ALTs you prefer.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User talk:LlywelynII|<span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Llywelyn<font color="Gold">II</font></span>]] 23:07, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
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:*: {{sc|a)}}&nbsp;The pronunciation ''is'' given and referenced and surely [[User:Harrias|you]] don't think it's actually helpful for articles to just start listing rhymes for their entries. If {{sc|[[wp:notdic]]}}, then surely it's not a thesaurus or rhyming dictionary either. {{sc|b)}}&nbsp;This pronunciation is given because it ''is'' odd and misleading. Just like "done" is very common but people don't expect to pronounce "clone" similarly, the natural pronunciation of some unknown word spelled with -ea- is going to be /i/: "[[County Meath|Meath]]" doesn't ''look'' like it's pronounced "meth" any more than people read "plead" as "pled". [[Lead]] (the metal) is the {{sc|primarytopic}} for {{nowrap|{{sc|l-e-a-d}}}} but starts off with a pronunciation guide; [[leadership]] doesn't. So, no, it's certainly understandable to etymologists but doesn't "make sense" to people seeing it for the first time. {{sc|c)}}&nbsp;It's much more helpful to illustrate that with a rhyme, however, than giving people flat IPA. The rule about sourcing hooks is there to make sure the information is accurate and dealt with. With regard to the subject of the article it ''is'' sourced and, with regard to the pronunciation of "death", [[WP:BLUE|it can be taken as common knowledge]] by anyone with enough English to understand the hook.<br />Now, that said, I ''can'' add scrollover text about the rhyme... I just don't think anyone really wants ''or'' needs that, if you really think about it.<br />If you have more general qualms about pronunciation-based hooks, my feeling is that this is the most unexpected, interesting, ''and'' helpful information in the article but you're welcome to suggest ALTs you prefer.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User talk:LlywelynII|<span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Llywelyn<span style="color:Gold;">II</span></span>]] 23:07, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 
::*With regards to your point A, I don't disagree, but technically DYK rules state that the hook has to be mentioned in the article, and while the pronunciation is, the rhyme isn't. Maybe this is a case to ignore the rules in favour of common sense though. For point B, I accept that a native English speaker would assume one over the other, but isn't a non-native speaker more likely to know the words death and breath, and rhyme it with them, than sheath or wreath? I don't know, I can see your point, but I think that the use of "odd" is too subjective. {{ping|EEng}} I take it from your ALT suggestion that you would be in favour of relaxing the rules slightly to allow hooks that aren't strictly mentioned in the article? [[User:Harrias|<b style="color:#00cc33">Harrias</b>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Harrias|<span style="color:#009900">talk</span>]]</sup> 10:14, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 
::*With regards to your point A, I don't disagree, but technically DYK rules state that the hook has to be mentioned in the article, and while the pronunciation is, the rhyme isn't. Maybe this is a case to ignore the rules in favour of common sense though. For point B, I accept that a native English speaker would assume one over the other, but isn't a non-native speaker more likely to know the words death and breath, and rhyme it with them, than sheath or wreath? I don't know, I can see your point, but I think that the use of "odd" is too subjective. {{ping|EEng}} I take it from your ALT suggestion that you would be in favour of relaxing the rules slightly to allow hooks that aren't strictly mentioned in the article? [[User:Harrias|<b style="color:#00cc33">Harrias</b>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Harrias|<span style="color:#009900">talk</span>]]</sup> 10:14, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 
::::Absolutely I'm in favor. Or, if it's distasteful to associate a saint with death, we could instead say that "''Teath'' rhymes with ''meth''". Drugs or corpses, take your pick. [[User:EEng|EEng]] ([[User talk:EEng|talk]]) 15:21, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 
::::Absolutely I'm in favor. Or, if it's distasteful to associate a saint with death, we could instead say that "''Teath'' rhymes with ''meth''". Drugs or corpses, take your pick. [[User:EEng|EEng]] ([[User talk:EEng|talk]]) 15:21, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 
:::::[[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] In which case, I'll approve the original hook, ALT1 and ALT3. I'd favour either the original hook, or ALT3. [[User:Harrias|<b style="color:#00cc33">Harrias</b>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Harrias|<span style="color:#009900">talk</span>]]</sup> 16:38, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 
:::::[[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] In which case, I'll approve the original hook, ALT1 and ALT3. I'd favour either the original hook, or ALT3. [[User:Harrias|<b style="color:#00cc33">Harrias</b>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Harrias|<span style="color:#009900">talk</span>]]</sup> 16:38, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 
::::::The slight disadvantage of ALT1 is that sometimes people get ''breath'' and ''breathe'' mixed up, so ''death'' (or, as noted, ''meth'') is a bit more definite. [[User:EEng|EEng]] ([[User talk:EEng|talk]]) 17:05, 1 January 2015 (UTC)</div></noinclude><!--Please do not write below this line or remove this line. Place comments above this line.-->
 
::::::The slight disadvantage of ALT1 is that sometimes people get ''breath'' and ''breathe'' mixed up, so ''death'' (or, as noted, ''meth'') is a bit more definite. [[User:EEng|EEng]] ([[User talk:EEng|talk]]) 17:05, 1 January 2015 (UTC)</div></noinclude><!--Please do not write below this line or remove this line. Place comments above this line.-->

Latest revision as of 06:23, 5 February 2020

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Fuebaey (talk) 15:09, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Saint Tetha

Created by LlywelynII (talk). Self nominated at 14:12, 1 December 2014 (UTC).

  • ALT3 ... that Saint Teath rhymes with death? -- EEng (talk) 20:27, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
    ALT3's punchier, so long as it doesn't mean we need to include an extraneous pronunciation for death in the article. — LlywelynII 06:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Symbol question.svg The article checks out fine: it is new, plenty long enough and sourced well throughout. There is no evidence of close paraphrasing or copyvio. The hooks do present a slight issue. None of them are actually stated in the article at all. The pronunciation guide is given, and referenced, but beyond that I think we're skating on very thin ice. I would either expand to article to explicitly state the pronunciation, or go down a different line. In ALT2 for example, what makes this pronunciation odd? If it rhymes with "breath" and "death", which are spelt similarly, then surely the pronunciation makes sense? English is full of these oddities after all. Harrias talk 15:35, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
    Template:Sc The pronunciation is given and referenced and surely you don't think it's actually helpful for articles to just start listing rhymes for their entries. If Template:Sc, then surely it's not a thesaurus or rhyming dictionary either. Template:Sc This pronunciation is given because it is odd and misleading. Just like "done" is very common but people don't expect to pronounce "clone" similarly, the natural pronunciation of some unknown word spelled with -ea- is going to be /i/: "Meath" doesn't look like it's pronounced "meth" any more than people read "plead" as "pled". Lead (the metal) is the Template:Sc for Template:Sc but starts off with a pronunciation guide; leadership doesn't. So, no, it's certainly understandable to etymologists but doesn't "make sense" to people seeing it for the first time. Template:Sc It's much more helpful to illustrate that with a rhyme, however, than giving people flat IPA. The rule about sourcing hooks is there to make sure the information is accurate and dealt with. With regard to the subject of the article it is sourced and, with regard to the pronunciation of "death", it can be taken as common knowledge by anyone with enough English to understand the hook.
    Now, that said, I can add scrollover text about the rhyme... I just don't think anyone really wants or needs that, if you really think about it.
    If you have more general qualms about pronunciation-based hooks, my feeling is that this is the most unexpected, interesting, and helpful information in the article but you're welcome to suggest ALTs you prefer. — LlywelynII 23:07, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
  • With regards to your point A, I don't disagree, but technically DYK rules state that the hook has to be mentioned in the article, and while the pronunciation is, the rhyme isn't. Maybe this is a case to ignore the rules in favour of common sense though. For point B, I accept that a native English speaker would assume one over the other, but isn't a non-native speaker more likely to know the words death and breath, and rhyme it with them, than sheath or wreath? I don't know, I can see your point, but I think that the use of "odd" is too subjective. Template:Ping I take it from your ALT suggestion that you would be in favour of relaxing the rules slightly to allow hooks that aren't strictly mentioned in the article? Harrias talk 10:14, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Absolutely I'm in favor. Or, if it's distasteful to associate a saint with death, we could instead say that "Teath rhymes with meth". Drugs or corpses, take your pick. EEng (talk) 15:21, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Symbol confirmed.svg In which case, I'll approve the original hook, ALT1 and ALT3. I'd favour either the original hook, or ALT3. Harrias talk 16:38, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
The slight disadvantage of ALT1 is that sometimes people get breath and breathe mixed up, so death (or, as noted, meth) is a bit more definite. EEng (talk) 17:05, 1 January 2015 (UTC)